Closer to Home S1 E3 ? Richard Wilkinson

PART ONE

Stephen (00:01)
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Closer to Home, the podcast where we talk about the relationship between home and housing and ask the question, are we in a home crisis as much as we are in a housing crisis? So my name's Stephen and I'm delighted as always to be here with my co-host Hannah.

Hannah (00:19)
Hello, hello, so happy to be here again.

Stephen (00:23)
As we've been working on this podcast, we've often found ourselves talking about it in our day-to-day encounters with people. But one thing that's really stood out from that is just how keen people are to talk about their understanding of home and what it means to them. Well, it seems that one of the most powerful ways that we make sense of home is through storytelling. So it's through stories that we share our memories of home and our thoughts about what home means to us today.

And because home is so essential to our experience as a human being, it's a crucial way in which we understand each other and form connections.

So today we're looking at how home changes through the big transitions and chapters in our lives.

And to that end, we're delighted to welcome Richard Wilkinson onto the show. And Richard's story of home has many different chapters, beginning in a council house on a brand new post-war estate and progressing to the boardrooms of housing associations and other key institutions. And along the way, he's gathered a lifetime of reflections and some great insights into what home means and how it can change over time. So hello, Richard, and welcome to Closer to Home.

Richard (01:28)
Thank thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to talk to you all. So where to begin? At the beginning I suppose, I was actually born in a back-to-back, a one up one down back-to-back with a cellar head kitchen. And there were five of us. I was born out of wedlock as they used to say at the time, so there was me and my mum.

There was my grandma and my granddad, her mum and dad, and her younger brother. So there were five of us in a one up one down cellar head kitchen back to back with an outside toilet. Do I remember much about it? Because I was three and a half when we moved. Well, I do. I have two abiding memories. One was the smell from the cellar in the cellar head kitchen. And I can smell it to this day. It was what we call in Yorkshire a foisty smell. And of course, I was a bit apprehensive about the cellar.

because I thought a bogeyman possibly lived down there. So I didn't spend much time at the top of the cellar stairs. The other thing I can remember vividly is the sleeping arrangements because it was a one bedroom and we all slept in the one bedroom. There was a makeshift curtain down the middle and my granddad and my 15 year old uncle slept in one side and my grandma and my mum and me as a toddler slept in the other.

Hannah (02:47)
I just wanted to pick up a bit there, Richard, on what you mentioned about all sharing one bedroom, particularly because we have so many concerns nowadays about overcrowding. Did that impact you think on your relationship with home and with the family members you shared your home with?

Richard (03:05)
Well, it's a difficult one really, because it was my norm at the time. And what is norm? You know, we don't know what norm is really, do we? Because it evolves all the time. But it was certainly my norm. And I'll touch on it later on. You I couldn't believe when I went to school age five that everyone's nan didn't live with them, because mine did. You know, so when they were saying, I'm going to see my nan, I thought, well, why? She's at home, So yeah, so was my norm, as I said.

I was three and a half when we were rehoused into the middle of a massive estate which was built in the early 50s. it was transformational, there's no doubt about it. The adults seemed lighter, brighter, the shoulders weren't down. We had every facility could want, including a dining room. My nan in particular was fond of a bay window and would spend a lot of time in the bay window looking up and down Sandome Drive. And basically we couldn't believe our luck.

Hannah (04:02)
just want to ask because I can relate to that being ? allocated or given a social home because I remember moving into ours when I was five years old and almost feeling like I'd moved into a mansion. So I just remember I have that memory of running around the place and just being like, wow, it's so big. I wonder what your first impression was, Richard, at three and a half years old.

Richard (04:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, well it was very similar except there's lots of building works. So I was fascinated by the men with the diggers and the man with the dumper and I wanted to drive the dumper but of course I wasn't allowed to. Well in health and safety I haven't got a grip yet but even then I wasn't allowed to drive this dumper and I offered to swap him it for one of my dinky cars but he didn't take me up on that offer. So yeah, so it was transformational there's no doubt about it.

we didn't call it social housing either, by the way, we called it a corporation house. interestingly, I got my first sort of taste of stigma in two ways, really. grandma used to say, my nan as I called her, used to say, those people from the posh roads look down the nose at us because we live in corporation houses. know, by this stage, I'm five or six.

I wondered what looking down your nose meant. So I spent a lot of time tripping up as I tried to look down my nose when I was walking to the shops and stuff. And then the other thing that I noticed about the stigma was lots of my friends moved out. Their parents were very aspirational and they were saving up for a deposit on a nice semi down ash borne way. And we couldn't do that. I knew that we couldn't save up at all.

Hannah (05:29)
See ya.

Richard (05:46)
because I was only five and a half when my granddad, the died, you know, right out of the blue, aged 55, no age sort of thing, massive heart attack and died. And my sense of home. It became, you know, anchor, the fellow that held it all together, that paid the bills and stuff, disappeared. And so I found that a real profound change, really.

But I'd always known extended family. was left with my grandma, my mum, my uncle living in this quite fabulous house, really, when you think about the rooms were spacious, everything you could possibly want. The only thing I could say was it was freezing in winter and I mean freezing and it was red hot in summer because of the concrete construction. But you could tell, you know, you could tell it was a corporation house. It wasn't a nice semi, if you know what I mean.

Hannah (06:42)
I just want to pick up a little bit on that aspiration because I remember exactly the same sort of feeling with my own parents. Like my father was very keen to get the times, the Sunday times and make sure we all read it. And I had a similar prohibition on being able to being allowed to play with some children and not others.

Richard (07:03)
I think you're right, think it is mainly a cultural thing because there was stigma within us people living in corporation houses. You're absolutely right about who you could play with. You know, I remember my nan having a hissy fit one day because somebody had left the washing out all night and that was deemed to be the most cardinal sin imaginable, you know. Look at that trollop over there washing out all night, know, this sort of thing. So even amongst us real working class people.

you know, who have been rescued by a corporation house. There was this, you know, she'd accused other people of looking down and nose at her, but here was she looking down and nose at someone else. And it's just the same in society now, isn't it? Looking people to blame or people who were beneath you. that. But I cannot overestimate how transformational a corporation house was for me as a nipper.

Hannah (07:59)
you know, honestly, you've just reminded me of my gran who had a similar anxiety about leaving underwear on washing lines. And still to this day, if I'm hanging the washing out, I'll hide my knickers around behind something that's bigger because my grandmother's voice is in my head going, no, you don't put your undies on the washing line. So I'm just there's a lot of resonances there for me, Richard, with what you're saying. yeah, very interesting you're drawing out for us that the stigma in the late fifties and early sixties was very present.

because it does go against the standard mythology that we have nowadays that it's just a product of policy and government. And I think it's really helpful to hear these accounts that can help us unpack a little bit more. So that's absolutely cracking. I just want to ask you a few follow on questions. What do you feel gave you a solid sense of home in those early years?

Richard (08:55)
It's an easy one really, it was mum. She was absolutely devoted to me. She overcompensated really because she knew there wasn't a father around and I didn't have a father figure and grandad had died. So she bigged me up at every opportunity, she told me I could conquer the world. She was a real competent northern woman. She worked in an office because she was determined to get out of working in a shop.

She was a really good manager with money. She had no money, but she could manage it really well. And she just, you know, believed in me at every turn. And I remember an argument between my mum and my nan when I got to be 16 about leaving school. And my nan was very much of the opinion, he needs to go out and get a job now, it'd be a big help round here. And my mum's saying, no, no, no, if he can go into the sixth form, I want him to go into the sixth form.

he might be able to go to university. So there was that big pull, but my sense of home was always very much grounded in my mum. And wherever my mum was, I knew I was safe.

Hannah (10:03)
would like to contrast that a little bit with how your sense of home was conveyed to you by the more institutional and potentially authoritarian location of being in a corporation home. Do you have any different experiences that contrast with how your mother made that property feel like your home?

Richard (10:24)
mother had this sort of eternal gratefulness She almost felt blessed and almost undeserving at times. here she was. She fought fiercely against the stigma. I remember to go and pick my dad's money up from the town hall and the clerks who used to give her the money were very offhand with her. You could see they were being really judgmental.

because she was an unmarried mother and here she was coming for the 25 bob that my dad paid every And she was ahead of her time really because she was a challenger and so if they were rude to her she'd challenge them. so Corporation House was about being just grateful to have a roof over her head that was adequate because she'd come from a roof over her head that wasn't adequate.

Hannah (11:16)
I'll finish up there with you, Richard, and I think you've just finished on a great point about that notion of gratefulness. It's something that came up very much in my research where people who'd come from, you know, really, know, challenging housing circumstances felt that sense of gratefulness, but it was very much a negotiated sense of gratefulness that mastered a lot of complex emotions underneath that.

Stephen (11:42)
Richard, I imagine that given your mum's level of aspiration for you, that education was quite a big part of your life and your sense of belonging as a child. Can you give us any reflections on your experiences at school?

Richard (11:56)
It's an easy one really because school was my second home. As soon as I arrived at school, I really enjoyed it, you know, going right back to infants and juniors and all that sort of I felt it was a bit of a leveler, even though some kids picked up there was no dad and stuff. Because I was bright and because I joined in, really enjoyed every aspect of school. And I actually got inklings as early as nine, 10, 11.

that actually education might be a way out to a different sort of life for me. And most of my school time was positive, except in year nine, which is in in old money is the third form. So I'm on about 13 years old and had to have a school uniform for the first time. my mum, because she was a single mum,

was allowed a uniform allowance and we picked it up from a department store in Bradford and I was horrified to find that when we went to get it that afternoon I was vests, three pairs of underpants, three school shirts and a pair of school trousers and there they were getting got out for me by the assistant who looked a bit surly and a bit matronly and then as she got them out she got out a rubber stamp rubber stamp pad.

and started stamping my vests and underpants with the letters BCEC. And because I was inquisitive, I said to my mum, what does BCEC mean? And the assistant chimed out in really curt way, Bradford Corporation Education Committee. And all I could think about, my mum was grateful for the uniform, but I just knew I had PE on Friday. And I thought when I hang that vest up do my gym lesson,

everyone's going to see it's going to be absolutely shown that I've got this uniform that's stamped up and so that was another taste of stigma early on but I did well at school and I went to high school obviously like everybody else does I got my O levels went into the sixth form I got my A levels I wasn't surprised that I wanted to teach because I'd enjoyed school so much but

It was a struggle. The transition was a struggle for me because I've got such a solid home My mum was a big influence. Did I want to go away? Could I get into university? I didn't even apply for university. So I went to a teacher training college and I went to Anick in Northumberland, which probably wasn't far enough away to get the full experience.

Maybe I should have gone further. don't know, but I loved teacher training college. I took to it, you know, really, I knew I wanted to teach. I had a real passion for it, for the get-go. And I thrived there. But the pull of Bradford was always there. Spokily, on my last teaching practice in Berwick-upon-Tweed, right on the Scottish border, the school offered me a job. And I turned it down.

even though I didn't have one in Bradford because I wanted to come home. The port of Bradford was there and so I came home without a job. Quickly got one by the way but that was by the by in a way but

Stephen (15:07)
So how long were you away in Amec then with teacher training? How long did that process take? Yeah.

Richard (15:09)
Teacher training was three years 1972 to

75 yeah and then I came back and got a job.

Stephen (15:15)
So, I

mean, yeah, I mean, you kind of clearly explained that there was a real draw for you of your home city and the home that you had with your family and your community. Did you have any sort of sense of rootedness when you were away doing the training?

Richard (15:31)
It was interesting going to Anwick because it was a really small and most of the people who went to Anwick College were mature students and most of them commuted from Newcastle. So at the weekends it was pretty desolate so I used to tend to hitch home, again the pull of home if you I enjoyed it all, I got stuck in, I got involved in as many things I could do. That's the sort of guy I am really.

but I knew that I was coming home and I knew that I wanted a career in a Bradford school.

Interestingly, this was my second dose of stigma because it was while I was at teacher training college that I quickly realized that I was gay and sort of accepted it.

I knew as gain I thought well this is a load more stigma I'm going to have to cope with, get through, sort out. So back I came in 1975 to get a teaching job in Bradford.

Stephen (16:21)
Hmm.

And we're in such an interesting time there, aren't we? Because, you know, decriminalisations happened four or five years prior to that, which you'd think would remove a degree of stigma. And I was quite curious about how it felt for you going from school in Bradford moving on to teacher training college, because in some your family origins were not relevant anymore because you were there on merit. And it was a very different time, I suspect, already from the mid-50s.

Richard (16:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Stephen (16:56)
is in terms of social attitudes so probably took you as you were rather than thinking you need to come from a single parent family because it's hardly relevant at that stage but it's fascinating that you talk about there being something else that's you know quite central to your experience of being a human being that's then made you feel slightly on the outside of things perhaps.

Richard (17:19)
Yeah, difference has been very much a bedfellow for right from the beginning. working class, being from a single class parent being gay, not making the choices that, you know, look to be set out for you. You know, is he going to get married? Is he going to have kids? I remember all these conversations at home, particularly from my grandma.

and I just wanted to get on with it. I was eager to get on with my life and build my career and you know if a relationship came along all well and good I was scared to death of that of course because it wouldn't be a conventional relationship by what was seen as conventional. So yeah it was it was a strange time and as I said difference was definitely my bedfellow but I arrived in a school that I quickly made a marking and guess what it became my home.

I stayed at Tong's School for 36 years and I went from being a probationary teacher to a deputy head it was a brilliant time of my life.

Richard, that is really fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing with us about this growing up in social housing, leaving to train as a teacher. And I just wanted to ask you, you made that choice about coming back to Bradford because you wanted to develop your professional career in Bradford. But it's one thing leaving home, coming back, it's never quite the same. Could you tell us a little bit more about your changing experience of home when you went back to Bradford?

Richard (20:04)
definitely wasn't the same because I came back to Bradford, lived with my mum very briefly and then decided I wanted a flat of my own which is everyone's rite of passage at some stage I'm sure and so I rented a and I left my presumably for good this time it wasn't temporarily for three years to train and I was very aware that I left her in this three-bedroom council house on her own. My grandma had died.

The uncle had got married and she was on her own and it was a bit of a pull. she was definitely suffered from emptiness syndrome and basically applied for a one bedroom flat herself moved basically from the council to a housing association. But I lived in my flat, rented as I say, building my career, trying to build my home. It wasn't particularly a nice flat.

But I thought, you know, it's the sort of thing everyone does. It's a rite of passage almost. And then I bought a Barrett house because I was a teacher with a good salary the caravan was there and there was a big picture of a helicopter. So I went in. I wasn't looking for a house. I was literally going for milk and bread in the village. But there it was. So went in. What you build in two bedroom houses. I don't know if I can afford one.

They had done the homework, what do do for a living? I'm a teacher, what scale are you on? Scale 3. Oh, we'll lend you �17,000. So I bought a house and throughout most of the 80s I was really happy with the house.

Hannah (21:36)
I'm just loving that image of nipping out to the shops to get some milk and you come back with a house. I think that has to be the most epic overspend I've ever heard of from a trip to the shops there, Richard. I don't think anyone could do that nowadays. A little bit more complicated. my mind, it's a very British thing, this idea of flats and then you move to your house.

Richard (21:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, absolutely not. not.

Hannah (21:59)
Can you tell us how you felt from that transition from that flat to your new build home?

Richard (22:06)
Yeah, I mean, it seemed to be, you know, again, it was like echoes of Thor Pedge again, because here it was brand new. I'm the first person in It smelled good. It was light and airy. It was mine or I thought it was mine. Of course, it wasn't mine at all. It was a mortgage. yeah, it was all those almost euphoric feelings again about, you know, new It was modern. It was in a really nice I started to build my home.

There's no doubt about it. I thought it was absolutely the right move to make. But at this stage, I'm getting on in my career, but I'm partnerless. And I'm very aware of that. I made a catastrophic mistake at the end of the 80s. I met a man. moved to Manchester, which was the gay capital of the North, to be with him. I bought a house there.

I quickly came very very unstuck because I knew it wasn't the right thing for me. It wasn't the area that I knew. I was like a dogleg off my lead in the gay village in Manchester doing far too much socializing and I was paying for it all. And in 1990 we didn't have coercive control with a name on it but I was being coercibly controlled monetarily. There's no doubt about that.

and I spent a fortune. I've made a massive profit on the Barrett house, but I had to buy a house in Manchester. So that profit had gone. by 1991, I was really unhappy. And guess what? I was back with my mum on her settee through the week, because I was still teaching in Bradford. So one night a week turned into two nights a week, turned into three nights a week. And then the relationship

never really got going with this guy. He was living in the house that I was paying everything for it took a really serious turn and basically I had to get out.

Hannah (24:08)
Thanks for sharing that with us, Richard. It's always difficult to discuss these things, but it's important to normalise, I think, talking about coercive control. But I wanted to just pick up a little bit on, I think here we've got like this imagined utopia for gay men of your era of like Manchester. It's going to be brilliant. I'm going to sell up and move. Yeah, you always feel this from what you're telling us, you're feeling this pull back to Bradford. So...

Richard (24:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Hannah (24:37)
I guess there's some emotional processing outside of the relationship of the expectation of living in the gay village and being welcomed in that community. But actually your community is Bradford, which isn't associated as being like a gay mecca really, is it? It's more associated with the ice rink, I think, and the film museum.

Richard (24:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I look back at these times thinking, you who was to blame? Can I blame it all on him? Was I partly? It was a really rough time for me. But all I know was my school job didn't suffer. I knew that I got to get that going. But I was sleeping on my mum's settee. it wasn't ideal. And I almost felt that we'd gone backwards massively. So in the end, my mum applied for a two bed. She said, my lad's with me at the minute.

and is sleeping on the settee. the housing association gave her a two bed. We moved in together. By this time, I were trying to dispose of this house. It was another tricky time in housing where it was hard to sell. So I moved back in with my mum housing association flat that I didn't have any right to. I wasn't on the rent book. I was staying with mum temporarily.

till I got back on my feet, whatever that means. Sod's law, right out of the blue, aged 61, she died of meningitis that summer. But my landlord, or my mum's landlord, were brilliant with me. They let me succeed to the tenancy. I've been here in this very flat ever since.

But I definitely lost my mojo, you know, because I should have got back out there and bought again shouldn't I? Because let's face it, owner occupied is the Nirvana of success, isn't it?

Hannah (26:24)
I think there as well, I'm hearing a contrast there with that, you know, the nirvana of home ownership, the nirvana for being a gay man and moving to Manchester. yeah, I'm hearing here a lot about the expanding nature of home and the uneven journey of home.

from this account, you know, you've, but it's still there, even though it's changing as you're going on in your life journey, it can be positive, it can be a negative experience. I think you've really impacted us that for that there, Richard. So I'll finish there.

Stephen (26:57)
Richard, you talked about that phase in your life where you'd returned to Bradford, you'd returned to, I suppose, that part of your conception of home that was safe and that was reliable, you know, in many ways, going back and living with your mum for a period and then the tragedy of losing her, but also, I suppose, a positive in that you were allowed to remain there and...

that was recognised as being your home by somebody in an organisation which is definitely a very encouraging thing. But you talked about how you'd lost your mojo but that you also found a sense of home in your teaching work.

Richard (27:36)
Very much so. School became, well, I've often said this to friends, it became my mother, partner, my world. It sounds really sad because, you know, I think I was a vibrant teacher. I know I was. You know, the kids told me, you know, that they enjoyed my lessons and I was good at what I did. But it was a sanctuary.

safe place. was completely at home there. You know, I've got to say the Sunday night blues never hit me. You know, I know teachers who say, Sunday night, my god, I've got to go to work. It sounds almost pathetic this, but I love to go to work. It was a great place, you know, full of really warm human beings that I knew I could make a difference with. Not just the kids, the staff,

They called me Mr Tong at the end because I'd been there so long. you know, could help shape young teachers. I could give advice to kids. I could get kids into universities when I hadn't been able to, you know. It was a really fulfilling place. my home home where I laid my head was almost secondary at this point because I was coping the grief of the loss of my mum, partnerless again.

I've got this fabulous

Stephen (28:51)
One of the things that we've examined a little bit as an idea is that partly what home is as an idea is a search for meaning for each of us individually in our own way. And obviously you are there in that scenario doing really meaningful It's doing something that is rewarding for you and is beneficial to the kids in that school.

on that theme, I'm really interested in your reflections on the role that schools giving wider sense of home and that stability in a community. Because the school you taught at complex catchment.

Richard (29:29)
Yeah, I mean, it's about constancy. I used to say this all the time to young teachers and to people like sixth formers, you know, we've got to be there. You've got to turn up because when young people are living difficult lives, sometimes chaotic, often they need a bit of constancy in their life. And the biggest thing that good teachers can do is turn up.

It was very much a case of I remembered my childhood very vividly. And so I wanted to make sure anything I could do to help kids thrive, inspire them out of the boots like my mum had done with me. You know, I wanted it to be, you know, because I remember this is a little anecdote that chills me to this day. I was a young teacher and a senior teacher said, what can we, what can we expect from these kids?

You know, and I was incandescent with rage because what can we expect is they'll lead fulfilling lives. Some of them will be teachers like me. Some will be doctors. Some will be lawyers. Some will be lorry drivers and that's all right. Some will work in Greggs and that's all right. You know, a case of, know, wanting, it's another cliche, but putting something back. I don't know, but I was at home putting something back and it led me into things like being a shop steward. And it led me into things like, I mean,

People say I'm a tenant activist. I never saw that on my job description, evolved, I guess.

Stephen (30:55)
Yeah, so, and that's an interesting thing you've touched on there because a workplace can be a kind of home and you've talked about that in terms of your affinity with the work that you were doing, but it's much about the work that people do individually as it is about the people that they work with and the kind of the place and the experience that that creates. So did you see your trade union work as being...

don't know, perhaps part of protecting a kind of home.

Richard (31:24)
Yeah, I mean, I sort of stumbled into it, to be honest. I was a branch because I thought it was really important work and I thought people needed representation. And I think I wasn't I didn't go in to challenge management because I ended up as a manager myself. I did it to represent people to provide a useful feedback loop. So the best I worked for used to meet the shop stewards on a regular basis for a feedback session.

which I thought at the time was quite innovative. it wasn't me being reactionary anything. genuinely wanted to help people make sense of their careers in a really difficult school. So I would deal with all sorts of issues, some of them welfare issues to be honest, but most of it was about representation and representing colleagues in various

Stephen (32:15)
And do you think that that was part of your wider awareness of the interests of others in a place or an institution working in a way that included and benefited everybody?

Richard (32:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

it's very much that. It's about sticking up. It's about advocating. you know, being the voice of not exactly the unheard, because they are unheard, they are not unheard, but they're certainly marginalized. So I reckon one of the big things I did as a teacher was to advocate for the kids in my care, because they didn't have necessarily the social capital to be able to do it.

They didn't have, you know, graduate parents who could give them good advice dreams they might want to chase. They were loved, of course they were loved, And, you know, I think middle-class kids by and large can take it for granted, but the sort of kids I taught couldn't.

and there was and I very much wanted to big up people speak up for them and help them it's all part of the teacher nurture role really

Hannah (33:20)
that was really interesting there Richard that journey into advocating for others in another role but I know you more really as

what I consider to be a tenant activist within the social housing sector. Would you like to tell us a little bit about what it is you do in that role in social housing?

Richard (33:41)
Well, it started off really by wanting to do nothing because throughout my career, if somebody had asked me, would I want to join a focus group? Would I write to join a co-design group? Would I give an opinion on X? And I said, well, actually I'm busy being a deputy head and I'd like a couple of beers at the weekend. So no, thank you. So it started with my retirement in 2011 when I realized a bit like trade union work. You think to yourself, I if there's anything I can do to help.

an organisation what it wants to achieve and that's how I did get involved. Because I quickly realised that social housing was a funny beast. had their own language for example. entered the planet void Hannah. Who calls an empty home a void? Well the social housing Who has phrases like forced entry policies and sterile corridors?

Hannah (34:30)
Yeah.

Richard (34:34)
Well, social housing does. So once I've managed to learn it, it was a bit like learning Esperanto. So once I've mastered the language, I got stuck in and did some challenging, respectful challenge, but I think it was nevertheless challenge that they needed. I found it very patriarchal social housing very there, there, there. You're the tenant, we're the owner, you know, and we know best. And I've got to say in about the early 2000s,

Hannah (34:35)
Decanting's one of my favorites. Yeah.

Do you have food?

Richard (35:02)
I got a whiff of things might be changing with my provider because for the first time ever I was asked what color I wanted for my front door. And I thought, bloody hell, this is absolutely revolutionary. It's normally it's green and you get what you're given. And suddenly somebody were consulting me with a shade card.

Hannah (35:21)
? You've just hit on something I think really interesting there, because you'll know with my research I argue for social landlords to be rethinking in terms of home creation. And I don't even get actually nowadays to that argument of like, maybe you should have a colour card and be consulting with incoming tenants about what colour to paint the wall, because I consider that too complicated a question.

Richard (35:41)
Yeah.

Hannah (35:44)
to be asking landlords nowadays. And I keep focused on things like floor coverings because repetition seems to really help hammer points home. So I just wanted to pick up with that really, know, we have this conversation now of landlords, social landlords talking about wanting to create homes. But I think there's a big difference there between creating housing and creating homes. I just, you know, in your role, could you tell us what your thoughts are on that? Because you've just touched upon it there in

Richard (35:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah (36:12)
in my view, that element of choice over your comb being expressed in colour.

Richard (36:18)
Yeah, well, to be honest, in my early days as a social tenant, I very much suffered from this patriarchal thing that you get what you give and we'll get back to gratitude. You should be grateful and all that sort of stuff. And I thought that there's got to be more to it than that. I've got to have a way of influencing. I didn't want to manage the company because I knew I couldn't do that. I knew it wasn't appropriate, but I did want to have some influence. And I wanted my fellow tenants and residents to have some influence too.

And I think I've said to many people, know, social housing boards are really strange places because they're full of two sorts of people. They're full of housing people who have done nothing but housing all their life, often retired, and they're full of what I call the corporates. And the corporates are lawyers, accountants, auditors, and really there's no room for much else in between.

So when I got myself on a board in 2018, I stuck out like a sore thumb I had a completely different mindset. I had different values. And one thing I wrote down was, you know, boards have got stewardship of housing associations, certainly finances and certainly regulation. What's missing for me is they haven't got stewardship of culture and they should have because culture...

It's what it's all

Hannah (37:41)
But I think that there's a lot of complicated issues there. We're cautious of going a bit too much into the world of social housing. So I'll just explain for people who are not from social housing.

Now other board members are not called things like financial board member or corporate board member so there's something there about that stigma again I think in like you're not a board member Richard you're a tenant board member how do you feel being put in that place there or do you think it's got a function to it?

Richard (38:11)
Well, it's worse than that because if only they did all have tenant or resident board members because some of them don't and many of them don't to be And I've got to say when I first arrived, I was definitely not the tenant board member. I was a board member who happened to be a tenant. I thought which was better. having said that, there was an assumption for the first couple of years when I was on the board that the residents were my constituency.

So whenever there was a discussion about something that they would say, Richard, what do think the residents will think? And I thought, you I used to say, well, actually, you know, ask them. I'm not here to represent 21,000 residents. I'm here, you know, for what I bring. I tell you a phrase that drives me nuts. Lived experience. We've all got lived experience, otherwise we'd be dead.

Hannah (39:06)
I'll say I think that's, that's, what is it? Why is some stuff leaking from academia and the stuff you actually want to leak in from academia never seems to reach it. But yeah, I could really relate to what you're saying there about being in that tenant whisperer role. Cause I play a similar role at the university being like the token working class person.

So every time there's a consultation on poverty or welfare policy, it's like, Hannah, can you tell us, will this work for people who are broke? I'm like, no, it's ridiculous, stop it. And I just find it's that distancing and then that tokenism and that representation. Because you can advocate, but I feel sometimes that representation, it's got to be grounded.

and connected. I can't speak on behalf of people, you can't speak on behalf of people without knowing you're representing some sort of truthiness. So what do you think are the most important factors in ensuring that boards are connected with the everyday experience of tenants and I won't say lived experience?

Richard (40:10)
Well, it's an interesting one and I often find myself in board meetings because I'm still on a board which is a different board but it's almost that you're reminding them truly matters. for example, we're convergence at the minute because the government wants to converge rents. It's got the potential to frighten residents to death.

You see what happens is boards go off on one and let's discuss CPI plus one as the rent increase. Well, I saw it as my job to say, where does the plus one come from? You know.

When your kids need a pair of shoes, you're not cancelling your gym membership this month. You're not for going to ski on holiday. You know, this is about real life. And so I think boards often need reminding of that.

Hannah (40:58)
Well, also, you've got to be willing to listen. this is a perpetual, I'm constantly coming back to this question in my intellectual work of like, we all have some understanding of home. Yet what seems to happen with senior decision makers, they go in the front door of their office and it's like, they're complete, I'll sit at the desk at the home office and completely forget. And I'm like, you do understand the importance of home.

Richard (41:01)
Yeah.

Hannah (41:25)
What is this selective amnesia? But I'll leave that as a hanging comment there. I just want to ask you a final question really to bring it back to that idea of home because we've explored it in all sorts of different ways here. When did you know that you felt at home being on that board?

Richard (41:44)
I felt most at home on the board when I was out and about with the other board members on say scheme visits or at big events where some of us, not all of us met residents. So for example, annually we had the big conversation where board members were invited to knock on doors with some professionals. Now, we won't go into is that appropriate? But you know, I enjoyed that sort of encounter.

Did I ever feel truly at home on the board? Yes, I thought I could hold my head up. I was equal to any of them to be honest. I didn't bring financial forensic analysis. No, I didn't bring legal. No, but I brought an expertise of knowing what it's like to live in social housing. But more importantly, I know what it's like to need a home, thrive in a home, be challenged in a home.

failing a home, succeeding a home and I think all that's really important.

Hannah (42:47)
It really is there. And I think when it comes to decision making at board levels, another area of selective amnesia always strikes me for emotionally informed decision making. You know, it is possible. There's plenty of techniques. There's tons of research.

So I have a similar frustration. I just find it quite relatable what you've said about being that other person in that decision making context. And I feel the same and I feel it to me is anchored in class.

PART TWO

Stephen (00:00)
Richard, I'm really keen to pick up again this idea of difference and how important you think that might be in helping us examine the concept of home. We talked a little bit earlier about that being something that's informed your perspective. And I think it seems to me that if...

The idea of home is not laid out for us ? as a pre-planned pattern. It's something that we have to think about, something that we have to find for ourselves because we might be slightly outside the norm in some way. I don't know whether that kind of resonates with you or whether also it's helped you think about other people's needs for a stable sense of home throughout your life.

Richard (00:43)
always been really aware about difference at different stages in my life, a different early start to the norm, a different experience of college, a different experience of sexuality for example, and it made me able to spot it, to spot difference and particularly to spot difference where it was holding people back and by people I'm really saying kids because of the 36 years I did in school.

So because I could identify with it and I could spot it easily, I could do interventions and get kids to open up and advocate for kids and support kids because I could see they were operating outside a norm. So a really good example would be, know, British Asian kids who were working in two cultures and operating in two cultures, you know, being educated in the predominantly white school, but having to have different norms when they went home.

in the evening and at weekends and things. And so I was able to it and make a conscious decision to intervene where I thought I could do something. Obviously I didn't go around thinking, they need my help, they need my help. It was a case of, know, could I add something? Could I support them in a way? And I think I'm a bit of a natural empath because of what I've...

experienced. You know, I have been an outsider in many circumstances, so when you spot it in an educational setting then I think you naturally want to intervene. But equally it's come out later in my life when in my work on a board say, where again I'm advocating for groups of people and I'm perhaps I'm one of these that stick up for folk as we say in Bradford. You know some people need sticking up for

We know about underdogs, the British love an underdog, don't they? But yeah, it's very much about, it's where I feel comfortable and it's where I think I can make a difference, but I'm equally happy to butt out. You know, I'm not some sort of save you person with a cape who's gonna dive in and save somebody who don't want But yeah, it's very much my own differentness that allowed me to spot it.

and see if they needed some support.

Stephen (03:05)
So how do you think that that idea of difference can be powerful when it comes to board strategic leadership or the development of policy?

Richard (03:15)
Well, it's down to diversity of thought. We've done about diversity of boards. We're not there yet. It's never going to be there, is But my experience of boards, and I have five of them, NHS, academia, and housing, is the diversity of thought is not always there.

And boards strive for consensus and they can often get to consensus by not having examined any diversity of thought. So to me, it's not a true consensus.

Hannah (03:49)
Yeah, just the points I was making in our chat outside of the recording was, you know, we've made great leaps and bounds in terms of culture and representation on boards. But Richard's point about, you know, diversity of thought really resonated with me, especially coming from a university setting where I've never felt so different in my life. And a lot of that has also been through diversity of thought as well as diversity of class. I thought that was a really powerful point there.

And I'm still struggling to get that image of Richard out my head with his Superman costume on, with his underpants, his council authority underpants on the outside going around rescuing people in Bradford. But I just want to follow up with a question of my own there. So we know when we're talking about, there's a feeling of being at home and it can transcend that material location of house, basically.

Stephen (04:26)
Definitely.

Hannah (04:47)
So there's this essence of home and we know when it's there and we know when it's not. So what do you think we could do from, I'm talking to you there, Richard, as sort of like a board member, know, thinking about what policy and action could be taken to enable that feeling of home to be something that can be actualized in housing work.

Richard (05:11)
I think it's a really tough question, and it's one that we're nowhere near cracking yet. I think there's all sorts of little tweaking and cosmetic things. So for example, I remember attending a board where homes were called units and I couldn't believe it that they'd be described in such a way. And I think it's the Achilles heel in social housing because we're not addressing.

houses as homes or flats as homes. I think the trouble is they're seen as units almost, they're seen as revenue almost I think the regulator of social housing has introduced C ratings. I think that might do a bit of good in terms of but you know, did Ofsted do much good for schools? I'm not sure. Did league tables do much for schools? I'm not sure.

And will housing associations come up with policies that address what the regulator want them to address, not the gut feeling of home and the experience of residents?

Hannah (06:17)
I think you touched on something like this idea of constraint by policy and regulation. And when we were having the chat outside, you were telling us ? an account of what was a home-based decision was constrained by a bureaucracy that can sometimes be flexible and sometimes inflexible. So could you tell us about that story of the young kid who was being allocated into

Richard (06:44)
it's a powerful story and one that really shook me when I first heard it. Basically, there's an 11 year old boy who lives with his mum and her partner. He's about to be taken into care. We don't know why, but he's got a good relationship with his mum's mum and dad, his maternal grandparents, and they live fairly close by.

The trouble is they live in a housing association two bed bungalow that's designated for the over 55s. So therein lays the dilemma. My argument would be, and I used it in a training session, if the culture of an organization is good and the intent is there, that little lad goes to his nan. If we get it wrong and we get constrained and hamstrung by policy and procedure,

ends up in local authority care and I think that's that's the nub of it for me.

Hannah (07:41)
that I think captures, know, when we're talking about home on this podcast, we're talking about it in so many different dimensions and perspectives, but there's real, real consequences. I think if we lose a connection with that essence of home in our culture and you've captured it brilliantly there, Richard, do we want to be constrained by predetermined policies and procedures or do we start wanting to sort of connect with the idea that

the essence of home matters. We know when we've got it, we know when we haven't. And really, I'm kind of interested in a later episode to see if we can unpack what happens when, you know, for young people in particular, that idea of home is something that might not happen for them because of these complex circumstances. So thank you for advocating for that young person, Richard. I think it's really, really important that...

we have these conversations because that's the difference it can make.

Thank you Richard for telling us all about your experiences of home and I think it's really important as well. know, Richard's has lived a vibrant life, a complicated life, a human life and sometimes it's been in social housing, sometimes private rented, sometimes owner-occupier. So I hope Richard's story has actually done something to undermine some of the stigma that we seem to have in this country about social housing.

and borrow all the conversations about mine and Richard's underwear, which Stephen seems to have gone away lightly with, and we won't be... You have? I wonder, should we do a future episode about how at home are not Stephen feels in his undies?

Stephen (09:17)
I have.

Yeah, think anybody's

sock and underpants drawer is the very heart of their sense of home, Hannah, so we should definitely do an episode on that.

Hannah (09:31)
you

Yeah, do imagine Stephen's to be way more tidy than my sock and undie drawers, but maybe we should leave the images for our listeners to percolate in their minds. But throughout this series, we're to be exploring ideas of home, stories of home in more detail. We've both returned to questions of home many times during our careers in housing,

And we certainly do not claim to have all of the answers. Sometimes what it is, is we need our better questions. So we're going to be bringing in more people with direct experience and deep understanding of some of the tensions we've explored today through Richard's account. We'll be asking what these accounts mean for practice and policy and for real people who need that connection and understanding of home. Housing is more than just bricks and mortar.

And it also seems from today's conversation, the concept of home also transcends that idea of bricks and mortar, as well as there's a sense of rootedness there that we need to unpack. So we've got some fabulous guests lined up for you, but we are always looking for new perspectives. So if today's conversation with Richard has struck a chord with you, then get in touch with us at hello at closer to home dot org dot UK. And just because of me accent again.

That's H E double L O at C L O S E R T O H O E dot org dot UK. Thank you so much for joining us today. We hope you're tuning in for another podcast and get in touch. Tell us your stories of home.

EPILOGUE

Hannah
just because you've mentioned my name, I've immediately forgotten what was just said. Sorry about that, what am I picking up?

I don't know why, but sometimes when people say my name, it's like, just immediately forget what was just being talked about. It's a weird demand avoidance thing, I think. like, makes me sit to attention and stop flowing.

Stephen
Well, there's always

that little bit, isn't there, goes, what have I done? That's why I have, what have I done? know, if it's said in a particular way, then there's all that kind of, every kid has always something that hasn't been found out about. And you're just waiting. You're waiting for the Mother's International Network to the message through.

Hannah
Yes! Yeah! Yeah!

Richard
especially if you get your

full name. If you get Richard

Stephen
Haha, your Sunday name, yeah.

Hannah
always feel

There's also something about the H in Hannah that I just, it sounds hard. I always feel like whenever anyone says my name, I'm going to get told off. It's like, Hannah, just, don't know why.

Stephen
You

see, well the H would be emitted normally in Yorkshire dialect unless it was a Sunday problem.

Richard
Yeah.

Hannah
That's probably why I feel like I'm getting told off whenever it's I hear the H whether it's there or not